Gravity and Time Travel

I am not Trollface. Never heard of them.

Despite the negative tone of my post, it was a challenge (unspoken) to get mathematical knowledge and use it to communicate intelligently. I am a very callous personality uneasily offended by others' words, so it is infrequent that I find offense in the written word, regardless of source. That makes it easy for me to overlook the possibility of angering others with my responses. Know then that it was not my intention to belittle his or your personal status or feelings, but rather to encourage a universally understandable language.

sorry Troll I have to disagree,there is a difference between encouragement and just being a plain dick about it.Yes math is the universal solution to a question in retrieving an answer, however , before math ,there is concept of ideas.A man whom has come up with a concept is not necessarily going to devise the math behind it.He in turn would ask for help in proving it right or wrong.Which I think is the whole point to a forum.The extremely smart can not see things from a simple mans point of view and therefore end up over looking a simple solution. A simple man can not solve an extreme math solution by looking at it.More then likely they can come up with the rough draft ideas.Hence Gene Roddenberry's Star Trek and its influence on world's culture in designing new technologies and medical exploration.Gene couldn't do the math but he could come up with the concept on many things that we have even now. Examples, Tablet, Plasma/LCD screens,The Internet, the list goes on. Ideas sprung from a simple man who could not do the math. So in closing , your comments and statement were illogical to say the least.
 
You are right. I come up most of the time with the concepts and some other people put in the mathematical jargon and formulas and believe it or not I have a strong physics background. So I am a hundred percent with you on that one
 
You are right. I come up most of the time with the concepts and some other people put in the mathematical jargon and formulas and believe it or not I have a strong physics background. So I am a hundred percent with you on that one

Physics and math are not my forte. My area is languages and programing. I'm a bit of a generalist. My job is to see the big picture.
 
Darby, a few more thoughts.
Energy can not be created or destroyed?
Yet it can be arranged. This arrangement is a kind of memory.
Now does this persist eternally into the future?
I think it has to.
The past is the foundation stone upon which the future is built.
If we have no persistent past, we are like Rutger Hauer in Blade Runner.
I believe there is a mirror 5th dimension in addition to our 4.
In this dimension is reflection, memory, ghosts, the past and even possible futures.
 
I suck at math and science but I'm interested in both, but at the same time Religion and the philospher's stone, but if you don't know enough then you need others to help you out. I'm interested in Languages and programming but I'm still learning. They are just a higher learning curve for me whiel Math And Science are also. I've always been interested in ficitonal writing and so I am one, but I won't mention anything about my work again since people call it trolling. I'll talk about the topics I'm interested in but I know nothing about. I'm also really interested in Physics but that again is a higher learning curve for me. Lots of time to learn. I always think of possible futures and put that into my ficiotnal writing. I met someone who I can talk about anything with and will only talk to her aobu tmy fictional writing instead of here. Here I will be more inclined to learn about Math, Languages, Physics, Science, progamming, OSes, or anything of the nature. No more trolling on my end. Sorry. Those subjects will be my main focus or else I get a little crazy. Thank you. Come again.
 
Darby, a few more thoughts.
Energy can not be created or destroyed?
Yet it can be arranged. This arrangement is a kind of memory.
Now does this persist eternally into the future?
I think it has to.
The past is the foundation stone upon which the future is built.
If we have no persistent past, we are like Rutger Hauer in Blade Runner.
I believe there is a mirror 5th dimension in addition to our 4.
In this dimension is reflection, memory, ghosts, the past and even possible futures.

You're on the right track. Mass-Energy is a conserved quantity in a closed system. But then along comes general relativity and an ongoing debate over conservation of mass-energy in an open system (like the entire universe) marches on for almost a century.

Not intended to be rigorous:

Without going into the details, the Einstein stress-energy tensor in general relativity can be expressed in differential form. Doing that you can look at an infinitesimally small volume of space and it appears to be absolutely flat. No problem so far with conservation of mass-energy. But the tensor has a time component in it. Expand the volume of space in a gravitational field and it no longer appears flat. The time component is dependent on the local spacetime curvature. The curvature tensor depends on the time component. Spacetime varies dependent on the local curvature. This means that both the measuring rod (space) and clock (time), which are used to measure the mass-energy component of the system, vary.

The debate goes on as there are other mathematical approaches to the problem that appear to reduce the situation to a frame independent situation. But it hasn't been resolved. General relativity is a well tested theory and it includes as part of it's definition it's own downfall. Like all theories is it an approximation of "reality". The underlying issue in the on-going debate is that the theory is defined by the stress-energy tensor but the tensor itself is internally defined by other variavbles in general relativity. Such an important issue usually depends on definition by first principles (externally defined by some fundamental rule, law or theory).

Anyway...

The record of information, whether it is a book, tape, DVD, human brain, chemical, etc. is subject to degredation over time. If classical thermodynamics was strictly true it would be possible in principle to trace the path of every subatomic particle in the universe back in time and recreate every event in history back to the Big Bang. In that case all information is strictly conserved. Obviously, it is impossible to trace every particle or even a few particles back in time one second. Too many particles and time marches on while we look at just one of the particles.

However, classical thermodynamics is not strictly true. Quantum thermodynamics is a much better approximation of reality than the classical theory. In quantum physics particles do not have discrete positions, velocities, mass or energy before a measurement is made. In that case is becomes very difficult to state on the quantum scale that information is conserved.

The real question that we are asking is not so much that information is recorded and preserved in approximately an intact long lasting form because we know that it can be so preserved. What we are exploring is whether or not "the past" in its physical form is preserved such that we can use some device, a time machine, in order to travel from the present to the past and visit there "in real time", interact with it and possibly alter it - either intentionally or accidentally. That's the fundamental question that I was refering to. And it brings us back to the question of conservation of mass-energy.

As a gedankenexperiment we propose a scenario:

The time travel experimenter invents a working time machine. The machine is in his/her lab and the plan is to travel back not to the Middle Ages but just 20 minutes. The plan includes building a spatial offset in the spacetime coordinates so that the gadget arrives in the lab next to the launch point not on it. The researcher climbs aboard, dials in the coordinates, flips the switch and appears in the lab 20 minutes earlier. In the lab we now have two working time machines and two identical researchers.

One hour prior to the experiment the researcher wrote, in pen - not typewritten - instructions for himself:

"If the experiment is successful give this note to your earlier self.​
Self - if this experiment is successful I will not travel back to the future. Instead I will stay in the past with you. Twenty minutes later, when I'm back in my "present" we will not conduct the experiment."​
When he was finished writing the note he signed it and had every other researcher in the lab sign it. They then all put an inked impression of their right thumbprint next to their signiture. This was to ensure that there was no question about forgery of the note.

On arrival he shares the note with himself. His twin also has a "copy" of the note. They compare and agree that it is the same note. Twenty minutes pass, they don't perform the experiment and two identical researchers, two identical time machines and two identical notes move forward in time. This is a paradox because we have three items that have created themselves because they did not perform the experiment. There is one difference, which is yet another paradox. One of the twins remembers performing the experiment, the other does not share that memory. Yet when the appointed times comes the action is not performed by either. There's even a third confounding paradox. Why didn't the researcher who recalled performing the experiment also recall its outcome, his twin, the extra gadget, the note and their resolve not to perform the experiment before flipping the switch? He both performed the experiment and followed the instructions not to perform the experiment and had no memory of any of it other than flipping the switch.

One argument could be Many Worlds. He landed in another universe. That doesn't really resolved the issue. The researcher and gadget are not individual subatomic particles. They are very massive classical objects. The probability wave for their outcome would be virtually straight up and down. There might be an infinite number of universes created but they would all be virtually the same - an extra researcher, note and gadget that seem to create themselves. By this method infinite mass-energy can be created.

The question of whether traveling to the past is possible or if the past persists is still open.
 
One argument could be Many Worlds.

It's our best argument leading to the least amount of paradoxes and explaining the results.

Traveler_1 in Universe_1 writes Note_1.
Traveler_1 goes into Universe_2 and leaves Note_1 for Traveler_2 20 minutes in the past.
Traveler_1 returns to Universe_1 where Note_1 is gone but Note_1 is also not in the past of Universe_1.
Traveler_2 with Note_1 changes Universe_2 for the better.
So we might ask, if Traveler_1 does not benefit from this change, why does Traveler_1 act at all.
Ah! Perhaps Universe_1 ceases to exist and it is Universe_2 that was just born which takes the place of Universe_1.
Traveler_1 also fades from existence where his consciousness merges with Traveler_2's.
Suddenly, Traveler_1's efforts have meaning.
 
Extremely Interesting Chumps. Chums!!!!!!!!!

When we see matter in this universe, since we perceive it and feel it so presently, we believe it to be fixed and solid. Needless to say, all objects have their own vibration and frequency. When we experience them we simply participate of their solid form, not their rapidly titillating capacity, because in a way we find ourselves fixed to the same wavefunction where they are to be solid.

Imagine an infinite sea of energy, information and matter all rolled up in a non-fixed state. Imagine now that this sea has a hollow center, a center which is infinite given to its universal exotic and transcendent geometries. This pocket universe would be our universe. However, between the infinite sea and the pocket universe imagine there is a Hyper Quantum Compensation Manifold. The job of this universal device is the following. It doesn't matter how infinite the pocket is, the sea will always Know its boundaries and is capable of seeing the pocket's time frame from beginning to end at a glance. In this sense it is the Prime Observer.

Being able to do so, the HQCM device works by providing said universe with all of the energy-mass conversion ratios needed, for every event where energy/mass is spontaneously created. Also, it will reabsorb whatever energy/mass or mass/energy is no longer needed, keeping a straight balance. Every time energy is placed into the universe it enters the pocket as information/energy and once inside it regroups as mass.

However this will only be seen in places where energy and mass collide, at the center of stars and of course inside my new time-traveling pocket watch(;))
 
Let's go to the cat in the box idea.
We do not know if the cat is alive or dead in the box.
But just because we don't know doesn't mean that the cat is both alive and dead.
Darby doesn't know if the past persists.
If the past doesn't persist, then neither do things that we are not currently perceiving.
According to this, the cat is not even in the box! The cat doesn't exist! The past of the cat does not exist.
When we open the box, the cat materializes and is either dead or alive given probabilities.
While true on the quantum level, this is not true on the physical level.
But if a time traveler does experience the quantum world, then the cat does not exist at all until we focus our senses upon it. Universe_1 and Universe_2 do not exist until we open that door. Whichever door.
If we open the door to Universe_1 then Universe_2 has NEVER BEEN.
 
Ah! Perhaps Universe_1 ceases to exist and it is Universe_2 that was just born which takes the place of Universe_1. Traveler_1 also fades from existence where his consciousness merges with Traveler_2's.

Therein lies the problem. All of this is founded upon general relativity and, especially, quantum mechanics. The probability wave for the outcome only includes that which is possible under the laws of physics, not everything that one can possibly imagine. Absent a well founded underlying theory of physics that allows a massive classical object to simply vanish along with it's imprinted information (memory) this scenario can't occur.

Yet that's another side of the same paradox and I'm well aware of the conflicting ideas. I've previously proposed a scenario where massive classical objects seemingly are created from "nothing". I generally reject that idea but it is implied by time travel. You propose the flip side of the coin; matter seemingly disappears into nothing. I also generally reject that idea. But I do admit that the logic of both ideas is consistent. If one is true then it is possible, at least for the sake of consistency, that the other is also true. One can only hope that neither is true because if it is so then all conservation laws go out the window in spite of the fact that they have been generally shown to be correct. Reality becomes nothing more than a random walk. If that is the case why time travel at all?
 
When we see matter in this universe, since we perceive it and feel it so presently, we believe it to be fixed and solid.

That's not necessarily true. With a little education, and most people here have that bit of "little education", we know from special relativity alone that matter is not fixed. From condensed matter physics and atomic physics we also know that it is not "solid" - it is for the most part a vacuum. From optics we know why matter appears to be "solid". From E&M Theory we know why it reacts as if it is a "solid". From all of that we have redefined our old idea of the meaning of "fixed, solid matter."

Chumps? Was that really called for, TR? That's a bit out of character for you.
 
I didnt mean to offend, chumps is the equivalent of pals, dudes and buddy. I wont use it again.

Good. Because "chumps" is not considered anywhere to be pals, dudes or buddy. Maybe your wayback machine has failed to properly translate our language for you.
 
Scenario 1:
The word "Chump" is a British slang for "the heads".
I guess Transient001 was using an informal term to say "heads" or "people".

Scenario 2:
The word "chump" can also be explained as referring to a person as unintelligent as a "chump" of wood, or a blockhead, chump in this sense appeared first in 1883. "Such a long-winded old chump at telling a story." Or, from 1887: "Frank audibly remarked: 'This man is a chump. I could go..this minute and do better than that."

It is a word used between 1880-1930s.

I considered the point of view of Transient001, as a claimed time traveller may feel frustrated to some closed minded people, whose thoughts and knowledge are fixed to the maths and physics of 1800-1900s.

An opened mind is the key to unlock the mystery of time travel.
 
Thanks guys, didn't really mean to offend. Maybe my wayback translator broke again or maybe I am timeshifting way too many times a week. Most possibly its hampering my ability to use applicable words within a particular temporal setting. Anyhow, I won't use the word again.

So, understanding that matter is not fix, it could also exist as a waveform, as a range between 0 and 1. Zero being the more insubstantial and One being the more physical and dense. In this state of flux, as it is right now, matter is much more than an assembly of atoms. Understanding matter will undoubtedly lead us to understanding gravity better.

According to ancient philosophers, matter was composed of four main concepts. The first was the innate particle which composes the actual vessel of matter. The second is the pressure that very same matter exerts upon the physical world, which is not real and is considered to be just a shadow of an even more real dimension. The third is the emanations of that matter over the unreal universe. And last but not least is the level of dynamism between said matter and the surrounding universe.

Considering the first, we must say that such atoms are nothing more than the actual cage where energies and wavelengths will be posited, also formed by a set of sub-particles.

In the second one that pressure is also exerted by yet another group of particles which exist in a wave-function-like state.

The third exists as another set of particles, however these ones will react positively or negatively with the rest of the universe, somethings will avoid it and somethings will seek it.

The fourth is the level of activity of such object in relation with others. This will also be represented by another set of particles.

If we see this from the Sea I as talking to you guys earlier, this object will exhibit a gravity that is the result of an universal equilibrum in relation with all of the other objects in the universe.

Well I have got to go, I still need to get my Verbo-brain fixed
 
I thought it was pretty funny. This is the reason why you need and intermediary, someone who understands the jargon of this age.

I don't even fully understand the jargon of this age, but I continue on and I've noticed that because of lack of communicaiton my life gets ruined. It's hard to live in this time. I'm working my way in getting a comunication degree so that I can help better understand people of this time. My language is completely different than those in person and things get misconstrued all the time. I even get the feeling I'm unwanted in lots of places and my time here is difficult enough knowing that I don't understand the language here because I speak a langauge of my own.
 
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