CERN Norway What is happening?

[RainmanTime]

but it still don't explain a 4 mile wide diameter vortex from a missile that likely would not have been more than 10' in diameter.

Fact 1 - You do not really know what the actual diameter of the vortex was (and it depends on whether you are talking the video, or the photo which appears to have been taken significantly later since the vortex has grown in apparant size). I don't even know its actual size because, as I explained, no one knows the range...and not knowing the range introduces a LARGE error in estimating the 2-D extent of the vortex spiral.

Fact 2 - If we take the "3rd stage" report of the Russians at face value, I have already discussed that the missile is flying through EXTREMELY LOW DENSITY atmosphere. The lower the density of the air, the LOWER the viscous damping effect which would retard the growth of an aerodynamic spiral. With regard to this fact of density, I have previously suggested you may be applying the high-density damping effect of the atmosphere down here where we live and breath to the situation of the rocket at a much higher altitude (and much lower density). It is incorrect to do this. A vortex spiral at those low densities can grow VERY large simply because the density of the opposing air molecules is so low.... and it can also grow VERY fast depending upon one other fluid dynamic property, which leads to...

Fact 3 - Again taking the Russian report of this happening in the "3rd stage" at face value, this would also mean that the Mach number of the missile with respect to its surrounding airmass would be well in excess of Mach 10 (probably quite a bit higher, since the Shuttle achieves Mach 25 at its highest point in the thermosphere). The dynamic pressure at this point represents the "strength" of the vortex that the missile is creating (i.e. how FAST the spiral will be created from the body and how LARGE the extent of the spiral will appear). The alternate form of the dynamic pressure equation in terms of Mach number and local static air pressure is as follows:

Dynamic Pressure = (1/2) * Ratio of Specific Heats for Air * Static Pressure * Mach^2

The ratio of specific heats for typical diatomic molecules (i.e. AIR) is a constant value of 1.4. I just gave you a MINIMUM Mach number that this thing had to be traveling at, and if you wish I can also show you how to find the static pressure for a "standard day" at altitudes in excess of 200,000 feet. That would give you a means to estimate the magnitude of the driving dynamic pressure that is causing the spiral to form.

That should help explain why what you believe is not possible from "just a missile" is actually quite possible, indeed probable, once you understand the pressure forces and aerodynamics of a missile traveling this fast through low-density atmosphere.

RMT

 

[Darby]

Ray,

Gosh. Do you think that Bournelli actually was smarter than any of the rest of us?

 

[KerrTexas]

KTex, that's a great image...

Thank-you ! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Here's another one:

Once again this is a Shadowgraph of a Bullet. However, I added in the multi-colored portions to give it some variety.

This image should provide an example of what is being said in these posts. The expansion of the vortex is rather large compared to the Bullet itself. You can see that the vortex created by "this" bullet is getting larger behind it.

Also, I would hope that you can visualize that if the Bullet was a missle, jettisoning fuel, from the image, what do you think that would look like ?

This Shadowgraph was taken from the side, and the bullet in the image is 175 feet from where the bullet exited the barrel of the gun. Smaller in scale, but the dynamics are the same.

IF we could see this image specific perspectives, I would say that the image would appear very similar to the Norway Spiral.

BTW: I have only seen ONE still photograph of the Norway Spiral. And that photograph obviously was touched up through an editing program. I have NOT seen anything marginally close to that "ONE" photograph in ANY of the numerous videos.

Perhaps Rainman can better explain the ACTUAL dynamics of what is happening in the image in this post, or in more scientific terms ?

 

[Twighlight]

but it still don't explain a 4 mile wide diameter vortex from a missile that likely would not have been more than 10' in diameter.

Easier to understand when you consider that the rocket was likely travelling at 2 to 3 miles per second. At that speed, the cone ( as shown in KerrTexas pic ) is actually quite narrow in contrast to it's length.

The spiral is made of material that is being ejected from the rocket at a speed similar to that of the rocket itself. It only requires the smallest degree of the rocket being 'off center' ( and this rocket was waaaay off center ) for the exhaust to be ejected sideways to a large degree.....at that speed. A 4 mile wide spiral would be easy.

 

[Darby]

Twilight,

4 miles wide really is easy - and just about correct. When we watch lanuches at Vandenberg from Santa Barbara we see the plume spreading out at about 40 miles high, 120 miles downrange and subtending an angle of ~2 degrees wide.

Take 120 miles as the radius of a circle. The circumference is, therefore, ~754 miles. 2 degrees along the circumference is 754miles /(360 degrees/2 degrees) = 4.2 miles.

 

[Darby]

You can also do the calculation using the radians trig function.

(754 miles/6.28)* 0.34907 = ~4.2 miles (2 degrees = 0.34907 rad)

 

[paladius]

ok, I'm back on the rocket train. thanks all for taking time your time to explain, especially rmt, who has put in hours answering my conspiracy questions over time.

 

[bogz]

Has anyone calculated the length of the smoke trail compared to how long it took the spiral to form (looked pretty quick to form when I saw the videos). I'd like to see a video of an out of control rocket leaving a trail and compare how long that one takes to form a spiral of equal length.

It also dissipated pretty quick. If it was a super fast spiralling out of control rocket, what kind of trail does it produce that fizzles out in a couple of seconds. Didn't really "dissipate" like smoke or condensation, or look like it was ignited. It simply vanished from the center in an accelerating outward spiral.

My guess is it was a hoaxer projecting something on the clouds, not a rocket.

 

[RainmanTime]

Paladius,

KTex, that's a great image...but it still don't explain a 4 mile wide diameter vortex from a missile that likely would not have been more than 10' in diameter.

Your belief in what is "likely" is simply based on ignorance of aerodynamics and atmospherics. That is not an insult, just a fact. (Some people think being called ignorant is equivalent to being called stupid. It is not. It merely states you are unaware of something.)

When I first saw the video in the link below, I thought of you and this conservation we had about the "Norway Spiral." The following is an amateur video taken at the recent launch of NASA's Solary Dynamic Observatory (SDO) probe. Watch the aerodynamic wake of the launch vehicle disperse the "sun dog" in the atmosphere. The rocket is traveling somewhere around Mach 6 at the time of the event. If you pay close attention, and replay it several times you can clearly make out the visualization of the shock waves emanating from the launch vehicle itself as they break-up the sun dog.

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2010/images/coolmovie/anna-herbst1.m4v

The moral of the story? Launch vehicle wakes, caused by shock waves, are MUCH larger than you seem to think is "likely". Offered as a public service to help you overcome your ignorance. :D

RMT

 

[paladius]

NOTE that "POTUS" means "president of the united states" and that "bunker" and "2012" are all in the same sentence.... Who still thinks this be a missile?

from WIKILEAKS>>>>


09OSLO337: NORWAY: CI/KR RESPONSE FOR USNORTHCOM

ID
09OSLO337
SUBJECT
NORWAY: CI/KR RESPONSE FOR USNORTHCOM
DATE
2009-12-09 14:48:00
CLASSIFICATION
TOP SECRET
ORIGIN
Embassy Oslo
TEXT
T O P S E C R E T OSLO 000337

NODIS USNORTHCOM Maj. Gen. Thompson

NSPD 51/HSPD-20: DECL: 03/20/2019 TAG EXDIS, ROGER, DOCKLAMP

SUBJECT: SWEDEN: CI/KR RESPONSE FOR USNORTHCOM

REF: USNORTHCOM 17835

Classified By: Lt. Col. McClary for reasons: (A), (Q), (Z), and (R)

¶1. (S) RNoAF response to HAARP/CERN spiral anomaly was limited to 175 km. with testing parameters met within 3degrees of arc access.

¶2. (S) Post recommends activation of 2012 Project ALICE Bunker for POTUS/SECDEF
MCCLARY
HEADER
VZCZCXYZ0008
PP RUEHWEB/QR

DE RUEHSM #0194 0791327
ZNY SSSSS ZZH
P 201327Z DEC 09
FM AMEMBASSY OSLO
TO USNORTHCOM PRIORITY ALPHA-Q

 

[KerrTexas]

Who still thinks this be a missile?

Me. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

With errant missles flying about...I would imagine that there would be such a response, at least until it was figured out exactly what happened. I am certain that there is a counter-order issued once it WAS figured out. BUT, where is that ? Only seeing one side of a two-sided coin, as it were.

 

[paladius]

Tex, what do you reckon "activate 2012 Project ALICE Bunker" means?

 

[KerrTexas]

Tex, what do you reckon "activate 2012 Project ALICE Bunker" means?

I reckon it means to take the key government officials to the safety of a underground bunker. Still wouldn't find that all that unusual.

As far as the 2012 reference, don't know how much to put into that considering that they're raising the retirement age to 70. IF it was a definite absolute that we're all going to be blown-up or annilated in 2012, no need TO raise the retirement age, or extend the Bush Tax cuts, for that matter. If'n most of us are going to be dead in 2012, anyway.

~~~~~~~~

" It's thought that the deal will temporarily extend Bush-era tax cuts for two years and federal unemployment benefits for one year. "

Excepting the retirement age, taking a closer look at the timing of the extensions, and printing cash like there's no tomorrow...Hmm...maybe "they" DO know something is going to happen in 2012.

 

[paladius]

How about " RNoAF response to HAARP/CERN spiral anomaly was limited to 175 km. with testing parameters met within 3degrees of arc access" What you reckon there?

 

[KerrTexas]

Well, after reading this about HAARP :

" The HAARP project aims to direct a 3.6 MW signal, in the 2.8-10 MHz region of the HF [High Frequency] band, into the ionosphere. The signal may be pulsed or continuous. Then, effects of the transmission and any recovery period can be examined using associated instrumentation, including VHF and UHF radars, HF receivers, and optical cameras. According to the HAARP team, this will advance the study of basic natural processes that occur in the ionosphere under the natural but much stronger influence of solar interaction, as well as how the natural ionosphere affects radio signals. "

Reckon you got me wondering...a pulsed signal of some type ?

However, if you think about it , the document doesn't make sense.

Have to ask why would the U.S. monitoring folks would be caught un-awares and/or surprised IF it was a "test" by HAARP/CERN ? and order the President to an underground bunker ?

And what is the link to your source ? Wikileak itself, or from some other site that may have altered or made the dispatch up altogether ?

IF the Russians did fire a missle, which took the monitoring folks by surprise, perhaps what may be the secret here is that HAARP actually tested some sort of anti-missle device, and either affected the missle from the start, or in flight, and caused the missle to fail in it's trajectory.

Seems possible that a pulsed signal could scramble the electronic guidance system of a missle.

Hmm...very interesting, paladius.

 

[paladius]

"RNoAF response to HAARP/CERN spiral anomaly was limited to 175 km". Seems to me that they may have been caught off-guard by an "anomaly". I don't know what RNoAF means (something air force?), but...looking at google earth you can see that haarp and cern are a great distance from each other, however, the norway spiral happened to be about 1/4-1/3 distance (maybe a harmonic?). Maybe, the anomaly was that spiral was created by both haaarp and cern running at same time and this triggered the "oh [censored] what's that, get the POTUS to bunker response". If this is the case, it would be plausible that another similar spiral also existed at the same time somewhere over the arctic ocean.

This of course would negate the missile theory, so it's probably not true... right?

 

[KerrTexas]

RNoAF , would seem to be Royal Norwegian Air Force.

Definition of Anomaly :

1) Deviation or departure from the normal or common order, form, or rule.
2) One that is peculiar, irregular, abnormal, or difficult to classify.
3) Astronomy The angular deviation, as observed from the sun, of a planet from its perihelion.

A missile flying over any particular country, unannounced, or in an irregular, abnormal flight trajectory could easily fit the definition of "an anomaly".

That the monitors were caught by surprise and AT FIRST didn't know what was happening, ( where the missile was headed ), resulted in precautionary measures being taken.

As I pointed out, the Wikileak dispatch doesn't make sense, IF the dispatch is even actually part of the Wikileak ..um..leaks.

RNoAF response to HAARP/CERN spiral anomaly was limited to 175 km. with testing parameters met within 3degrees of arc access.

I read this sentence as claiming that HAARP/CERN were conducting a test, and is addressing the Norwegian Air Force ( Military ) response to the test.

BUT...

IF it was a test being conducted by HAARP/CERN...then the U.S. Military would know it "was a test" and would not ...

" recommend activation of 2012 Project ALICE Bunker for POTUS/SECDEF "


Unless, it was a missile ( at the time ) of unknown origin, in a state of failure, resulting with it flying over Norway, causing alarms to be raised, and the Military used a secret ( as yet, unknown ) anti-missile weapon to scramble the missile's flight control systems through a HAARP/CERN military project involving pulsed / continuous signals of some type, and forcing it to drop into the ocean. Thus the :

...parameters met within 3degrees of arc access.

And until the military could determine exactly who was doing what with the missile, recommended the President be taken to a ( what the military thinks is a secret ) bunker, in case the "test" of the anti-missile weapon didn't work and the ( as yet ) unidentified missile continued on to some populated location, perhaps, within the U.S.

Of course, this all "sheer speculation" based on something that isn't even verified as authentic.

 

[KerrTexas]

But, yeah, I can see it your way, too.

Messing around with the forces of nature, and "whoops", run for it, boys, didn't know "that" was going to happen !

Missile or no, just have to chalk it up under the " Shi* Happens" category. It happened, whatever it was, and we're still around typing away on the keyboard. So..no harm, no foul.

If they ( HAARP/CERN ) caused a catastrophic event due to an experiment gone wrong...oh well...if I'm dead, wouldn't care one way or the other about what happened anyway.

Actually think the whole thing is hilarious. Thinking that certain government officials are scrambling to save their behinds, and then getting the "Never Mind" dispatch...hardy, har, har, on them !

 

[Gpa]

I heard about this today and thought I'd post it here for others to see if they haven't already. It's a short article but some may find it interesting.
http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/72244

 

[Darby]

KT,

Of course, this all "sheer speculation" based on something that isn't even verified as authentic.

That one sentence has my vote for the "Best Post Award" for the 1st quarter of 2011.