Alternate forms of energy vehicles:

creedo299

creedo299

Epochal Historian
On beating the Titor Prophecies

If you had to, without gasoline or other forms of power, as a small community effort, could you assemble battery powered auto, utilizing both a battery bank, a set of solar cells and spare parts?

Communities that survive, stick together.

As a springtime project, do you think in your community, that your group could construct a very low oil usage vehicles, without gasoline being supplied?

This is both potentially a project and or a rhetorical question.

But say tomorrow gasoline was knocked out and the only items that were left, were spare parts and manpower, could you as a micro-community series of members, make both your own power, as well as transportation?

Worth a try, if the Titor predictions are going to get as hairy as they predict??

Truly,
 
Experiment:

I don't know exactly how they did this, but you can cook your own solar cells.

I know they use the elements of copper, boron and other elements to make a low grade, however effective means of solar cell.

How would you make a solar cell, if you did not have one in the future?
 
Hard To Find Electronics Publications Inc., will give anyone the method how to make and build your own solar cells.

These are not high grade solar cells, however' they do work and have an output.

Any junkyard, if you know what parts you need, will yield axels, auto-bodies, interiors as well as other parts and solutions, that can get you a light weight auto-frame, that will support a battery case, for your power needs.

Used and new batteries, will provide the stores of power one needs to partially power your vehicles?

Capacitors, will hold the ramped upped charge, that you need, to feed into your electric motors in order to powered you homemade electric autos.

A large motor machined and fitted to your transmission housing, in your proposed electric vehicle, will provide the power you need to move your vehicle.

If you set your capacitor banks, so you have sets of three of more capacitor banks, some capacitors will discharge to you electric motors, while other recharge, all of the time.Very large capacitors, then feed this power through a regulalator, to your motor.

So you should run and generator alternator set-up from the mechanical output of the transmission set-up, all of the time?

If you place a series of over one hundred miniature laser diodes, so that they always five back onto your solar panels, all of the time, you up your solar efficancy, almost one hundred percent, as your pumping back amplified light, all of the time to your solar cells banks.

The general idea is to look for a junk yard that you can get an inventory of parts that you need in and a junkyard owner, that will let you have a little latitude in getting the type of vehicle you need.

You also should need a person who is very good with a cutting torch, as well as other forms of welding.

You will certainly need a mechanic.

Last on the list, an electrician or somebody that knows electronics very well.

Last on the list, is also someone who is good with computer boards and or switching differences, in supplying power, alternated, from a power supplies, to a voltage regulator, divider, which both regulates, and gives out power, in a measured quality, to suerate input issues on your proposed vehicle.

You should be able to build an electric vehicle, that has fifty mile perhour performance, in about two years time or less?

This is by first planning the what, how, of how this vehicles is going to go togeahter?

Lubrication oil should not go up that high, however gasoline, might really begin to skyrocket in price.

So a do it yourself electrical vehicles, with enhanced performance parameters, might really be the rage of the future?
 
But say tomorrow gasoline was knocked out and the only items that were left, were spare parts and manpower, could you as a micro-community series of members, make both your own power, as well as transportation?
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They probably couldn't and wouldn't.
 
Hi 1122,

They probably couldn't and wouldn't.
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Agree with your statement as it regards making your own transportation. Don't agree as it regards making your own power, as I am doing it already with solar. And California Senate Bill-1 (affectionately known as the Million Solar Roofs bill) is poised to pass the CA legislature in the next week or so, and The Governator has pledged to sign it.

I've always agreed with Creeds that alternative fueled vehicles are the way to go. My disagreement with him has been in trying to make it "all solar". Clearly it is going to be various forms of hybrid technologies that will bridge the gap until any "single new fuel technology" is capable of standing on its own.

Kind Regards,
RMT
 
RMT,

California is doing a great job by pushing the solar bill, and they are the exception to my response. Unfortunately, I live in Michigan (and Ohio) where communities would probably use wood burning alternatives in the event of widespread power failure.

Yabba-dabba-doo,
Bob
 
RMT said, I've always agreed with Creeds that alternative fueled vehicles are the way to go. My disagreement with him has been in trying to make it "all solar". Clearly it is going to be various forms of hybrid technologies that will bridge the gap until any "single new fuel technology" is capable of standing on its own.

Cree answers> I am starting this topic on another board.

This is a principle in engineering, where on can start and energy reserve, via using solar cells, only, however this is an energy over curvilinear volumetric area, that is needed to produce your start of storable energy.(Reader should be questioning themselves, how they would adjust their own particular application, if they had the solar cells).

The examples is, say you paint strip and solar clad, on to a vehicle.

You will only get so much steady power, out of that unit per lineal surface volume, as the surface area, is round, or curved.

The power produced, will not be uniform, due to light and dark areas, over the solar cells given.

The problems are to both increase the output of the solar cells by morphic their abilities.

This would be the simple instillation of a laser diode, to fire back a return of light pumped power, back onto the solar cell, so increasing the solar cells output.

This is a theory, but by using the laser diode, your might be able to double the output given off the solar cells alone?

The second part of the equation, is keeping power from the energy methods of store and distribution, at an acceptable level.

This means that you have a battery store, of power, however from this store, the power flows to a capacitor, to the a regulated distribution device.

Subaru has this already, with a cap store electronic distribution center, rather than a distributor cap.

So keeping that energy from battery to capacitor, to e-motor balance, is what one must work at.

Autos for the most part, are an ego driven event.

Where the reality of practical application sets in, is why you simply need a vehicle to go from one place to another, say fifty miles per hour, without fan-fair.

If you don't have, or cant afford the gas, then this drastically changes the equation.

Other methods of repumping energy into the battery could be made from either an on-gear generator, or alternator, which would in some method run from the transmission gearing, in some way.**(A D.C or direct current generator, which works off of some gearing, while the auto is moving, could repump some power, back into this autos battery storage._Also the use of an alternator, along with the D.C. voltage generator, could also supply the autos needs for lighting, windshield wipers, heaters, air and other needed items).

These are not fabulous fancy automobiles, but will get you there.

Has anyone tried repumping a low powered laser diode power, back onto the surface of a solar cell, say via a laser pointer, and see if this increases solar cell output, with this little input alone?

Thanks for your return input in this thread?!
 
Hiya Bob,

Unfortunately, I live in Michigan (and Ohio) where communities would probably use wood burning alternatives in the event of widespread power failure.
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I hear ya! I grew up on the west side of Cleveland (Bay Village to be exact). While solar could still be part of the solution there, I think another big player (at least around the shores of the Great Lakes) would be wind power. My cousin who lives in Delta, OH is looking into putting one of the newer, high-tech wind turbines on his property.

IMHO there are three parts to the solution that must be understood and adopted to begin to solve this problem:

1) Before talking about new power generation mechanisms, we must first address power efficiency, whis is sorely lacking in virtually all American homes. How many people don't understand that AC-DC converters are still consuming juice even if the DC appliance they are connected to is turned off? Such a waste!
1) The "decentralized" nature of systems like the Internet must be viewed as the next step in powering the grid. Bucky Fuller wrote about it DECADES ago...and he is STILL right today. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif Power companies won't like it, but who controls the power companies? We the People, right?
2) Alternative power solutions should be integrated hybrid solutions, and they must be tailored to make use of the prevailing sources of energy that Ma Nature makes available. I'm buying property in CO this year and my plan is to design an integrated solar/wind system with a battery backup and charger.

People have called me crazy for even suggesting this, but just think how much FREE power is available in natural storms like hurricanes, tornados, and the ubiquitous thunderstorm. Even if we could only extract a fraction of the total power available, it is better than nothing... and furthermore it would turn a "bad" thing like Katrina into a potential source of "good"... if even on a small scale. We are at our infancy in learning to control the weather and make it work for us.

RMT
 
Engineering point of contention> RMT said, _ 1) Before talking about new power generation mechanisms, we must first address power efficiency, whis is sorely lacking in virtually all American homes. How many people don't understand that AC-DC converters are still consuming juice even if the DC appliance they are connected to is turned off? Such a waste!
1) The "decentralized" nature of systems like the Internet must be viewed as the next step in powering the grid. Bucky Fuller wrote about it DECADES ago...and he is STILL right today. Power companies won't like it, but who controls the power companies? We the People, right?


Cree makes a thread forum point in engineering > Please everybody, what is the value of adding an alternator along with a D.C. voltage generator, to any proposed electric vehicle?

Is it just that some alternators power certain items, that are convertible, to power needs made for autos now?

Or is there an advantage with alternating forms of current supplied power, through A.C. voltage regulators?

Im not trying to disrupt this thread, but certainly D.C. accessories,. over A.C. powered accessories within any proposed automobile, must be examined, as a verant source of power, within these autos.

*Eng (verant), contraction from the word verifiable:
 
Hi Creeds,

Bear with me. I am not sure I understand the intent of what you are asking, but I will, indeed, answer the actual words you have put forth in your question:

Cree makes a thread forum point in engineering > Please everybody, what is the value of adding an alternator along with a D.C. voltage generator, to any proposed electric vehicle?
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From and engineering perspective, there is no value in doing this because of the losses you would incur in each stage of power conversion as compared to the total power available and total power required for an electric vehicle. The explanation goes like this:

With a gas powered vehicle, there is a great deal of excess power available from the engine that is not used to turn the drive shaft. The generator/alternator makes use of this mechanical motion to provide power to drive all the vehicle's electrics while the engine is operating so as to not drain the battery.

The problem with the all-electric vehicle is that all power comes from the batteries to begin with. So the proposition of adding a conventional generator/alternator to this configuration would actually act as excessive drag (and additional load) on the batteries that are also driving the auto's drive train. So that right there makes it impractical. But now add to this the fact that you incur losses at each point that power is converted (mechanical to electrical, DC to AC, AC to DC, etc.) and you can now see that the idea is not practical for an all-electric vehicle.

I hope this helps answer your question.
RMT
 
Why I have done this thread at all, was the suspicion that gasoline power, would in some case, almost be cut immediately.

If you would have gone to some of the people in the outlying regions of New Orleans, shortly before their hurricane hit and said, in two weeks time, you will not have your car, or gasoline to fuel it, you would have been laughed at.

My premise Im working from here, is not qualified board-work, where people get out engineering manuals, look at the Dymaxian auto by Fuller and say, "Well' lets build this"?!

What I'm looking for, is a little embellishment on what mankind already has, be able to modify the standard auto and come away with a type of vehicle, that does not need gasoline, period.

This time, is predicted as times or tribulations in the bible, which might be an out-of-time prediction, of events that are sure to happen now.

People don't want Givinchy, they just want an item of cloths to cover their buts.

In this same line of thought, what can a group of people sentenced to an auto junkyard, come up with, if they can only order in solar cells, have some access, to mail order electronics equipment, or junkpile used and how can they fashion an automobile, that is readily serviceable out of these sources.

Not fancy engineering, but easy you wanted an auto in one months time, as you were almost broke paying for gas, how does one, right now fashion an electric vehicle, on a shoestring budget, for the simple luxury of getting around?

I suggest use alternators, mixed with simple D.C. motors, which would probably be special order items, as they are readily available in auto junkyards.

You can power automobile stereos, wipers, and so-on with alternators, that now exist, as they are already a resource.

This is low end grab off the shelf engineering, but it has to be able to work, and people have to be able to understand what the concepts are, building from junk.

People will not be able to afford simple gasoline, if things keep going the way they are.

There is a year waiting list for hybrid vehicles, also.
 
What I'm looking for, is a little embellishment on what mankind already has, be able to modify the standard auto and come away with a type of vehicle, that does not need gasoline, period.
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I honestly do wish you luck. But I don't understand the technical stance you are taking below...

I suggest use alternators, mixed with simple D.C. motors, which would probably be special order items, as they are readily available in auto junkyards.

You can power automobile stereos, wipers, and so-on with alternators, that now exist, as they are already a resource.
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That's fine but the stereos, wipers, and so-on are by no means the large power draw for an vehicle. The drive train is! Furthermore, you do understand, I hope, that alternators and DC motors do not PRODUCE power out of nothing. They produce it from the mechanical motion of the crankshaft that is being turned by, yes, that evil fuel we call gasoline.

I'm not trying to beat up on you here, Creeds. But I want to understand the technical details of what you are proposing. Because as it stands, what you are saying would simply be a larger waste of solar energy by transforming it with alternators or running through motors that are unnecessary.

RMT
 
The cap system is what feeds back power, into the alternator.

Try to look at the possibility of your power voltage poll, as acting like a reservoir.

If you go from this point, then you are able to feed back power into the system.

National Geographic has warned us twice, in two separate publications of their magazine, about the oil situation to come.

Try now, if you had to, to be able to convert an assemblage of junk, from any ay unto wrecking yard, into a viable vehicle, for everyday transportation.

The future is forecast as not being too hospitibable, to most humans who are not in the make to have plan.

I'm telling you all that I know now.

If they gave you a roll of NASA or other high quality solar cells, could you fit this to cover the standard auto and then modify them to make that pool of energy, that you could work and electric vehicle from?
 
What about the use of a table-top tessla coil, coupled with both the solar cells, a capacitor system along with those solar cells, being fed by a laser diode?
 
Creeds:
The cap system is what feeds back power, into the alternator.
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If by "cap" you mean "capacitor", then it is not a feedback device. It acts as an integrator in a circuit. Yes, it STORES energy, but that energy has to come from somewhere else.
Try to look at the possibility of your power voltage poll, as acting like a reservoir.
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Yes, I understand that. But a reservoir does not CREATE energy. It only stores it. The issue is not about storage with solar cells. It is still about the law of conservation of Energy. One way to write it is:

Power Output of vehicle = (Force to overcome rolling friction, static friction, and aerodynamic drag) * (Vehicle Velocity)
Power Input to vehicle = (Total Solar Panel Voltage) * (Total Current Draw of electric engine)
and finally:
Power Output = Power Input - Heat Loss due to Energy Conversions

None of this speaks to energy storage and capacitors.

If you go from this point, then you are able to feed back power into the system.
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No my friend, I'm sorry but that does not obey the laws of physics.
I'm telling you all that I know now.
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OK then how about this: Why don't you come down to SoCal next spring and sit through my ARO 101 Introduction to Aerospace Propulsion Systems class? You'll have a better grasp on the equations after the course if you do.
If they gave you a roll of NASA or other high quality solar cells, could you fit this to cover the standard auto and then modify them to make that pool of energy, that you could work and electric vehicle from?
Click to expand...
Not with the current NASA solar cells, no. Here, let me give you some equations and figures to help you understand:

1) Let's say we could get by with an engine+auto that is fairly stingy on power requirements. Small car engines can be rated as low as ~120 Horsepower. That is equal to 89,484 Watts. (or 89.5 KWatts)
2) If we simply ignore the conversion losses that WILL be present in the automotive system, that means we would need a MINIMUM of 89.5 KWatts to come from the solar cells in order to power the car and make it go.
3) For comparison, the solar cells on my roof generate a MAXIMUM power output (at high noon on a sunny, clear day) of 3.8 KWatts.
4) The area occupied by my solar array on my roof is approximately 425 square feet.
5) The efficiency of the solar cells I have in my array are approximately 14%. The best NASA solar cells are said to have efficiencies of approximately 22%. That yields an efficiency scaling ratio of (0.14/0.22) = approximately 0.636.
6) This efficiency scaling ratio means that the NASA solar cells should be able to generate the same power as my solar array (again, at noon on a sunny day) with LESS area than my array. The amount less is given by the scaling ratio.
7) Apply this scaling ratio and this means NASA cells could generate 3.8 KWatts with 0.636*425 = 270.3 square feet.
8) The maximum area available on an economy car that is (for sake of argument) 4.5 feet wide by 6 feet long is 27 square feet, AND that assumes you could also use the windshields to generate power! That is a factor TEN TIMES smaller than what NASA cells would need JUST to generate what my roof generates!
9) If you calculate the area that would be required for NASA cells to generate the required 89.5 KWatts needed to power the car, you would see that you need a surface area exposed to the sun of... hold your horses....

Approximately 6360 Square Feet! If you built a square car, that would mean the car would have to be 79.7 x 79.7 feet!

Creedo, I hope this short engineering analysis helps you understand just what kind of problems that must be surmounted before your idea can be workable. Even if you scale down the required horsepower to something really stingy, say 80 horsepower, you can do the numbers and see there is still a problem with today's technology.

I hope this helps,
RMT
 
RMT said; 5) The efficiency of the solar cells I have in my array are approximately 14%. The best NASA solar cells are said to have efficiencies of approximately 22%. That yields an efficiency scaling ratio of (0.14/0.22) = approximately 0.636.

Cree answers, And you've taken an LED laser pointer, and had shown this pointer, upon a solar cell, to look for an increase in electrical output?

This is what I'm after in this thread.

I know that the solar cells alone, might only give enough power out to operate a radio.

What I like about the solar cells, is that they are always on, so can always feed power to your collection systems.

The other point I'm after, is a D.C. operated solar cell.

What would be the inversion utility and how would you convert the output of a tessla coil, to viable usable power, that could be inverted and sent back into the energy poll?

I'm thinking and inductor of some sort.
 

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