God?

Re: Scientifically sound Bible...

Like I said, my senses are just as LIMITED as your senses. We already agreed to the fact that we, as humans, don't get the full picture. What I meant was that your perceptions are not necessarily an accurate representation of "reality". Both our perceptions of "reality" are different, but your version is not in any way better than mine, although you like to think it is.

And this had been your continuing argument for why there is no God. Sounds an awful lot like the same argument that Ralph Waldo Emerson addressed so plainly, and so long ago:

The soul is the perceiver and revealer of truth.

We know truth when we see it, let skeptic and scoffer say what they choose. Foolish people ask you, when you have spoken what they do not wish to hear, "How do you know it is truth, and not an error of your own?" We know truth when we see it, from opinion, as we know when we are awake that we are awake...

We distinguish the announcements of the soul, its manifestations of its own nature, by the term Revelation. These are always attended by the emotion of the sublime. For this communication is an influx of the Divine mind into our mind. It is an ebb of the individual rivulet before the flowing surges of the sea of life.

Ralph Waldo Emerson - Emerson's Essays

I'll be back to address your latest post after some breakfast and running some errands. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
RMT
 
Re: Scientifically sound Bible...

Last things first! Let's try this one in reverse!


Sometimes I get the feeling that you are here to preach, rather than debate this subject.
Actually, I would not place myself in either of these two extreme postions (and yes, they are extremes). I'd prefer the middle ground between the two, and the word I like best rhymes with one of yours but is quite different: teach. And what many people do not understand about teaching is that learning is built-in.

However, in my opinion I've sufficiently refuted your application of the uncertainty principle earlier in this thread. I've even brought forward some comments on your application of the 2nd law of thermodynamics, which you have conveniently put aside.
Perhaps you'll have to remind me, as I do not recall not addressing anything you put forth. But then would you like for me to review all the pieces of evidence I have presented which you have seen fit to put aside?

So, if you will only accept a mathematical refutation, I think it's better to just drop the subject and agree to disagree.
Doing this would only bring a stop to the teaching and the learning. We both have a lot to learn, Roel. And while you might not believe it, this very discussion on this very forum is part of a larger movement in beliefs occurring on our planet. We were always meant to have this discussion and perform these acts of learning and teaching. We have done it in past time cycles, and will do it in future time cycles.

Much of the material I have presented, which represents several of the infinite means to approach and understanding of God (Creator, Creation, Life, etc. call it what you will), are not my own, original material. These materials come from many great men, both living and deceased. Some of them scientists and some of them spiritualists. All of them had (having) the impact that they were destined to bring to humanity.

There is a book I would recommend you pick up and read, Roel. That is if you actually ARE interested in approaching an understanding of what God is, and how man-made religions have instilled false beliefs about what God is and wants. I know OvrLrd presented one book to you long ago in this thread, and you rejected it because it was "difficult" to understand. I assure you that the book I am going to recommend is much more easy to understand. While you may not believe some (or perhaps all) of what it states, I think you are mature enough to at least have a read and see if you "get the message". Are you game?

The book is one of the latest by Neale Donald Walsch, entitled The New Revelations. It is the latest in his "Conversations With God" series, but you do not need to read any of the previous volumes in order to understand (or enjoy) this one. I would even be willing to purchase the book online and have it shipped to you, if you choose to read it. I assume there is a version in Dutch, but if not your command of English is certainly excellent. Just let me know if you are willing.

Even though I'm almost certain that you are abusively applying science
I know you would like to think so, as I am sure it brings some level of comfort to you. But I tell you that I have abused no science. In fact, there are scientists who have already demonstrated the power of many of the things I have spoken of (improvements in physical systems through use of closed-loop control, non-linear maths, and information). And science continues to uncover these "new facts" that confirm what has been told in mystical texts for a great many generations.

I've explained before that I cannot share everything I know, as much of it is protected either by corporate proprietary compacts or government security laws. However, I can assure you that more than one project has successfully demonstrated the principles of some of the science I have presented....and much more. It will be revealed to the general population eventually, and you will know it when you see it, and I believe you will recognize it as what I have been talking about.

While I cannot provide certain specifics, I have presented to you the general outline of what these specifics are based upon: The Tree Of Life. One such scientific example of this which you have yet to refute in any manner is that of the Matrix of Massive SpaceTime. In no way have I abused the fact that all scientists and engineers are taught: The fundamental units of physical reality are three in number: Mass, Space, and Time. Far from abusing this scientific fact, I have done what all great scientists have done in the past who have evolved our scientific thought: I have taken a known fact and expanded upon it. In this case, I have simply stated that Mass and Time are not scalars, as we have been taught, but rather are also orthonormal triplex entities, just as we know Space is.

This is but one example that I have presented which points to the Tree Of Life as its underlying, structural principal. Another one I have pointed to is the human body itself. These, and other examples of the physicalization of the Tree Of Life can be used to help us understand exactly what the Tree Of Life is. Perhaps some other, more descriptive words might help. Instead of "Tree Of Life" let us call it "Structure of Creation", because that is exactly what it is. In systems engineering we would call it a block diagram that shows the elements of a system and how they interact in order to achieve some given purpose. And contrary to any debunking that anyone claims to have presented against the Tree Of Life, the fact is slowly becoming apparant that the Tree Of Life structure is reflected in our DNA. It is one of the basic, systemic building blocks of Creation. A complex, integrated entity that is capable of processing information.

Let me close this post with a question to you, Roel. I'd like a straight answer if you could, please. Do you agree that the aims of the disciplines of Science and Spirituality are the same, in that they both seek understanding of our universe and our places in it?

RMT
 
Re: Scientifically sound Bible...

Does this thread win any length awards? Or how about a same-damn-arguments-over-and-over-again award?
 
Re: Scientifically sound Bible...

You are totally dependant upon what others experience, since you refuse to do anything to increase your own awareness. All we really are asking you to do, is try and spend some time increasing your own awareness.

First of all, I'm not solely dependent on other peoples' experiences. I depend on my own senses AND those of others.

Furthermore your advise is based on the false assumption that you and Ray are, by definition, more aware. I'm not as stubborn as you might think. Try to keep a more open mind, instead of thinking you're more aware than others.

Whether God exists or not, at this point I wouldnt even make that an issue for you.

Well... it's not even an issue in the first place. I'd like to keep an open mind until there is some scientific or even spiritual evidence that god exists. So far the provided "evidence" is best described as "the emperors new clothes".


When you do see that color as you are passing by, you stop for just a moment, and without thinking about it, study the details of the color.

As a desktop publisher I've been doing that for the past 8 years /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif Colors carry no secrets for me.

In the end all colors are light (or lack thereof).
 
Re: Scientifically sound Bible...

Foolish people ask you, when you have spoken what they do not wish to hear, "How do you know it is truth, and not an error of your own?"

That applies to the both of us. Does that make us foolish people Ray?

Last things first! Let's try this one in reverse!

But still linear, right?



If you aspire to be a teacher I only have one advise: don't give up the dayjob


But seriously. You haven't been teaching at all. Teaching is not a matter of forcing your opinion upon people and laugh contemptuously at their "limited senses" and their "lesser state of awareness". If you have the feeling that you are teaching and learning at the same time, I'm curious after what you have learned so far.

But then would you like for me to review all the pieces of evidence I have presented which you have seen fit to put aside?

I think we share the same problem (or challenge if you wish):

You believe something that you think you know to be true and so far you've been unable to get it across.

I believe that some of the things you say are untrue, but just like you I haven't been able to get it across.

We both have a lot to learn, Roel.

Yes. That's an absolute truth!


We were always meant to have this discussion and perform these acts of learning and teaching.

In my opinion we were not "meant" to have this discussion. That's a fundemental difference between my thinking and yours.


I know OvrLrd presented one book to you long ago in this thread, and you rejected it because it was "difficult" to understand.

You mean the Sepher Yetzirah? It's not only difficult to understand, but apparently it's even more difficult to explain it to others once you understand it. You could ask yourself why something that - according to you - holds so much of the truth, is so difficult to understand. I've come to believe that the truth can be hard to find out sometimes, but in the end the solution always turns out to be simple.

Also, it was not my intention to "reject" it. Reading the text seems like wasted energy to me, for the simple reason that people like you and OvrLrd don't seem to understand it even after reading it.

The book is one of the latest by Neale Donald Walsch, entitled The New Revelations.

I sincerely hope that the book gets better after this, because judging from this excerpt it's exactly the type of book that is most likely to induce my gag reflexes. The thing that strikes me most, is the arrogance and the preconceived tone in which the writer decides to express himself.

This spiritual arrogance is what has caused you your greatest sorrow as a species.

I wonder if anyone else has noticed the irony in this phrase.

We can look away from what's happening -- the sudden and eruptive disintegration of life as we know it -- for only so long before the fact that we really are in big trouble presents itself to us in ways that we cannot ignore.

There are two simple rules I always keep in mind when I try to solve a problem:

1) do not make the problem seem bigger or more complex than it is
2) do not look for big or complex solutions when dealing with small or simple problems

I think mankind has indeed worked its way into a mess, but I don't think it's as bad as some people want to make us believe.


I've explained before that I cannot share everything I know (...) and I believe you will recognize it as what I have been talking about.

Funny enough, it took me less than a heartbeat to believe that. I can literally "feel" that you actually worked on projects that will probably raise some eyebrows in the future. I know that what you are saying is true, because I know you have a certain amount of knowledge. You come across very confident in this case. The same applies to your 3x3 matrix and some of the other ideas you have shared in the past. Your ideas are sometimes close to brilliant and they sound very plausible to a certain extent.

Yet I do not get the same feeling when you talk about divinity, the creator, god and all the other things we've been discussing in this thread. I think that, although you've accepted those things as a truth, somehow you're not as confident as you might think.


And science continues to uncover these "new facts" that confirm what has been told in mystical texts for a great many generations.

Yes, but never the other way around. And again, I can't blame people for finding patterns. After all that's what our brains are good at. If all these "new facts" were already told in mystics texts, I'd like to see someone come up with a "new fact" from these texts.

You might want to take a look at this.


Do you agree that the aims of the disciplines of Science and Spirituality are the same, in that they both seek understanding of our universe and our places in it?

Yes. I will even admit that science and spirituality are akin. On the other hand I think spirituality is a very wide concept. I think I've mentioned before that perhaps - in a way - I am just as spiritual as you or anyone else. It depends on your definition of "spirituality".

Yes, we have a spirit or a soul. However, my concept of a soul is probably quite different from yours. Also, I think "spirituality" and "the divine" are not inextricably linked.


Kind regards,

Roel
 
Re: Scientifically sound Bible...

Roel,

Putting all differences aside for the moment, I would would like to wish you and your family a wonderful New Year with many blessings of health and contentment!
 
Greetings to 2005

I'll 2nd that sentiment!

Regardless of belief, here we all are in Time! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

May we all enjoy our current vantagepoint.

RMT
 
Happy New Year, Roel!

Tidings of 2005 to ya, Roel. I thought I would begin by asking the status of your new place and how it's going...

Sure, I'd appreciate it if you'd do the same

I think my apartment won't be a "closed loop system" until the end of january though. Unless ofcourse, we find a way to travel through time in a less linear way

Wow. Seems like the transition from 12/31/2004 to 1/1/2005 was quite non-linear!
And I think my headache today is just one of the clues to last night's non-linear antics! :D

Oh yeah, I forgot that I had some pics of my kitchen refurbishment online. Check them out...if you can stand a "stainless steel" kitchen motif!


Replaced ugly tile countertops with Corian.
New Gas/electric convection oven. A blessing for anyone who likes to cook.
Dishwasher was ultimately replaced with matching stainless model after this pic.
I've always wanted to create a kitchen based on wood, stainless, and cobalt blue. Say it, do it!

/ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif OK, tell me what you think. And your turn to post some pics of your new place! Hey, can you find the tribute to Holland in my kitchen pics?

More later, dude.
RMT
 
Re: Happy New Year, Roel!

Hiya Keven,

RMT, can i come live with you if i promise to cook in the amamzing kitchen???
Tell you what... if you can cook a meal that can blow my mind and my tastebuds at the same time, you might qualify for a job at a restaurant I want to start.


I'd guess that cooking and eating are things we all share in common, huh? What are your favorite kinds of food?

RMT
 
Re: Scientifically sound Bible...

Putting all differences aside for the moment, I would would like to wish you and your family a wonderful New Year with many blessings of health and contentment!

Thank you very much. Of course I wish you, Ray and everyone on the board a very happy new year. May all your hopes and wishes come true!

Kind regards,

Roel
 
Re: Happy New Year, Roel!

Tidings of 2005 to ya, Roel. I thought I would begin by asking the status of your new place and how it's going...

Oh boy... talking about kitchens /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif It took a while, but finally the kitchen installer decided to finish installing my kitchen in all his goodness. Not that he was very quick and precise, but I guess I have to be grateful nonetheless. Especially since things could have been much worse...

Both the bathroom and my floor will be taken care of in january. If everything goes right most of my furniture will be delivered by the end of january.


OK, tell me what you think.

The corian looks really nice. When I bought my kitchen I had to decide between two nice solutions. One of them was corian, which looked really nice. However, my kitchen is white already, so I decided to go for gray cesarstone. I'll take some pictures when my floor is ready in the third week of 2005 /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif I already read on your website some time ago that you like to cook and these pictures will only confirm that.

I noticed the little painting of a windmill next to your countertop (the one with the oven). I'm kinda jealous of your refrigerator /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif I don't know what you call this model, but over here we call them "Amerikaanse koelkast" which means as much as "American refrigerator".

Cheers!

Roel
 
Re: Happy New Year, Roel!

that'd be cool, but me being 16 i don't know how'd it'd look to live with an older man and work in the back of a restarunt, lol
 
Re: Hap

Religion, in every form it takes, is now, and always has been a "con job", and that's all it is. We know that it is a "con-job" because its motto is a thing called "Faith". And "faith" simply means that a person is told to ignore the evidence, ignore what their senses tell them, ignore all they know of science and history, ignore reason, ignore logic, ignore common sense and rationality entirely, and believe what they're told to believe. "Faith" is the essence of totalitarianism. Religion, and it's insistence on unquestioning faith and total obedience, is the quintessence of antidemocratic oppression. Today, as always, it returns false coinage for value received.


I like that paragraph /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

check this site out:
http://www.parascience.org/parasci.htm
http://www.parascience.org/Rel-Urge.htm <--
 
Re: Hap

Me, being a firm Deist, i have different take on things, i don't have the time or patience to explain to you what a deist is, well i expect most of you know.

The belief in God is no more illogical than the belief in Extraterrestrial life forms.

Although I am an atheist, I do acknowledge this statement. I believe in God, just as much as I believe in aliens...

Roel
 
Re: Hap

Just to add a contrary viewpoint...

Faith is not unquestioning, nor is it a method of control (although it can be used as such.) Faith is a belief in things that can't be solidly proven by us right now. You know, God, Time travel, whathaveyou.

There was a time when one's senses dictated what they believed. But, along the way, people got distracted. They got too wrapped up in pride... pride for their own accomplishments, which blinded them. Like the person who designed the Titanic, they'll swear it's unsinkable.

Faith is, really, an opening of the eyes. It's an opening of the eyes beyond what you can see around you, but an opening to see something higher.

It's a shame people screw it up so much.
 
Re: Hap

Saying that the idea of God is dead in this day and age is absurd. Did you pay attention to the US elections? Or to, you know, all those religions.
 
Re: Hap

The idea of those religions are long and dead, they only exist to give insecure people false hope of somthing better, there maybe a heavan and a hell, but i for one belive in reincarnation.
 
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